Episode 8 McCoy and Rivers === [00:00:00] Daryl Cagle: Hey everybody, I'm Daryl Cagleand I'm talking with conservative editorial cartoonists today. Two great conservative cartoonists, Gary McCoy and Rivers. In addition to his editorial cartoons, Gary draws two newspaper comic strips, the Flying McCoys in the duplex, which is just crazy and it's hard to imagine how any one person can do that. And Rivers draws anonymously which is the reason why Rivers is wearing a disguise and has an altered voice. But I should say that our Kegel cartoons newspaper syndicate is happy to work with Rivers anonymously. And we think that cartoonists around the world who may be harassed or persecuted for their cartoons should be able to work anonymously with the, of a credible journalism organization. And we're happy to do that with Rivers for whatever reason, that Rivers wants to be anonymous and we encourage other syndicates to do the same. And it should not be such an odd circumstance because I think it does good in the [00:01:00] world for people to be able to express their opinions responsibly and freely. Gentlemen, thank you for joining us today. [00:01:09] Gary McCoy: Thanks, uh, Darrell. It's a pleasure. I also am wearing a disguise, uh, I look like Madonna when I take it off, [00:01:16] Daryl Cagle: You do. So don't take it off. . Yeah, please. Conservative cartoonists are, a small minority among, the cartoonists at large. And, uh perhaps you feel, uh, marginalized. Perhaps you feel like you're, just a tiny corner of this, big community of editorial cartoonists. I'd like to know your feelings about being, the unusual conservative cartoonist. [00:01:44] Rivers: I used to be a liberal, right? So my history was being somewhat of a liberal guy, with liberal views. Obama was my guy for two terms. Towards the second part, part of the second term. I stopped enjoying Obama so much. And, I just started, becoming more [00:02:00] conservative in my views. It's like what Ronald Reagan said, it's not that he left the Democrat party, but the Democrat party left him. And I think that as the Democrats become more, almost loony, not almost, but loony, I find myself being isolated and, I. agree more with conservatives. [00:02:18] Daryl Cagle: Okay. How about you Gary? How do you feel being in the minority? [00:02:21] Gary McCoy: it's not easy nowadays. I was a, possibly a liberal when I was late teens, but, I kind of started evolving on my own. I used to cut out George Will columns out of the newspaper, the post-dispatch and Cal Thomas and Mona Sharon and I had a shoebox full of their columns, so I kind of formed my ideology throughout the subsequent decades. and then when Rush came along, he was a big influence. So my parents were both, from largely Democratic families. My dad was a, uh, a teamster, this whole life truck driver. But I don't think there were really. ideologically, liberal.[00:03:00] But that's the party that they, they grew up in because they didn't come from money. So they were taught young like many, that the Republicans are only out for the rich. Even though that's not true, but that's the way many generations grew up thinking. But nowadays, the tolerance for conservatives isn't what it is. Vice versa. For liberals, I've lost on Facebook, probably a couple hundred friends easily. That, have unfriended me guys, girls that have unfriended me because of my politics, and I've never unfriended anyone for their politics. And that's just a strange thing I've, I've noticed, is that there's my liberal friend rather than unfollow me, they just rather just not have anything to do with me. It's strange. [00:03:51] Daryl Cagle: Maybe it's that gun behind you. [00:03:53] Gary McCoy: Oh, that's, that's, that's a prop, in case the ATF is watching. [00:03:56] Daryl Cagle: So, uh, very good gentlemen. Gary, let's [00:04:00] start off with your cartoons. This is actually your most popular cartoon that you ever did in terms of the number of papers that ran it. The editors just love this cartoon. You've got two graduates. It's a graduation day cartoon, and I should say editors just love holidays. Graduation is like a holiday that lasts a month, and the girl graduate says, my degree is in engineering, the boy graduate. My degree is in arguing politics with people on social media. I can see why the editors like [00:04:29] Gary McCoy: that way. I think you had mentioned Darrell, how editors, like cartoons that, was it like any cartoon on social media or cartoons pointing out the, the negatives of social media. [00:04:41] Daryl Cagle: They like cartoons that, are not liberal or conservative. and you'll notice, would I show you your, popular cartoons that, they don't have Biden or Trump or any kind of real political point of view. That's just, uh, the nature of where newspapers are. Here is your second most popular cartoon ever. It's a [00:05:00] Christmas cartoon again, holiday cartoons are the most popular, you've got the two reindeers talking together, and one says, Paris Ali, I've been in favor of social distancing for a long. COVID cartoons. They took over everything for their two, three years [00:05:15] Gary McCoy: right, right. And, uh, and, and again, cartoons like this for, for me are fairly easy to think of because I guess my background is more in doing gag cartoons and gag riding. So, this again was, uh, seasonal and topical, both Christmas and Covid at the time. So it was pretty, easy one for me to come up with. [00:05:36] Daryl Cagle: And this one is your third most popular. You've got the Democrat donkey talking to the Republican elephant, Democrat donkey says, let's commit to working together in the new year. And Republican says, you bet pal. And then they turn around and have the kick me notes on their back. . [00:05:53] Gary McCoy: Yeah. Striking both, sides. And that's just something that's timeless. It'll always be that the two [00:06:00] parties, no matter how much they profess to, hit end agreements and be bipartisans. especially now, I think the divide is greater than probably it ever has been. Maybe it's because of the leaders we've had in recent years. Obama was very divisive and, uh, and Trump too, even though I'm a Trump supporter. But , there's no denying he was divisive, although I don't think as much as either Obama or Biden or. He attacked the press, I think, just as much as any, anything else. Well, I do [00:06:33] Daryl Cagle: notice that you guys drew Trump a lot less than the liberal cartoonist did. anytime a cartoonist drew Trump that pretty much guaranteed the cartoon wasn't gonna be printed, um, the editors just didn't want Trump cartoons. And I also noticed that in the cartoons that you gave me today for this podcast, neither of you gave me any Trump cartoons. [00:06:51] Gary McCoy: that's true. I think I came across one I considered and Found other ones I'd like better. [00:06:56] Daryl Cagle: So here you've got, two boys talking to each other, grandpa sitting in [00:07:00] a chair, and he's holding the little baby, looking like a very happy grandpa. one boy says to the other, that's my grandpa holding my baby's sister. Be careful. President Biden says he's a dangerous extremist. [00:07:13] Gary McCoy: I love, pointing out in my cartoons, things like this, that the media doesn't really cover unless it's right wing media. But, Biden seems so hateful despite all of his appeals for unity. But this one, again, struck me, fairly easy to come up with because when he talks about those evil MAGA voters and the MAGA movement, Were comprised of everybody on the spectrum. And again, just examples like this, an old man, who just simply voted Trump because he liked what he stood for and what he did for the country, but he wasn't a dangerous extremist as Biden portrayed them as. . [00:07:54] Daryl Cagle: Biden's looking at a Russian tank and he says thank you in advance for keeping your [00:08:00] incursion minor. This doesn't fit my liberal version of, what Biden is, cuz he's pushing for all the money for Ukraine and he's quite the cheerleader for, the war Ukraine. And I'm hearing, conservative voices, angry at him for that, that, are more isolationist voices. So, what's up with this? [00:08:19] Gary McCoy: Well, this was, uh, right after, Russia invaded Ukraine. And you remember he gave that, speech on the world stage where he was asked, his views on Russia, a Massey in its troops near the U Ukraine border, and the threats Putin was making. And he said something to the effect, if the incursion was minor, then you know, then it would be okay. Not, not his exact words, but in essence that's what he said. And many people, on the left and right would agree that it was that kind of weak statement from Biden, that may have given Putin the idea that he can go ahead with it and invade, [00:09:00] Ukraine. It wasn't a very strong stern warning. Uh, don't do it or anything like that. [00:09:05] Daryl Cagle: Yeah, I certainly didn't get that. I guess the conservative point of view you're seeing an entirely different world that I do. [00:09:11] Gary McCoy: So he did say it's a minor incursion, and and then it was right after that that Putin invaded. I get most of my news from, you know, middle right or right. But to me, even had I not gotten anything from the media itself, I was kind of agh when he said that it got a lot of play. Uh, I think it well in whatever media you listen to. Not that I heard it Maybe just, do you recall the right-wing media? . Okay. Well, you, do you recall his statement at all where he said that or [00:09:40] Daryl Cagle: not? No, I recall him always being a hawk on this. [00:09:42] Gary McCoy: Oh no, he, he, yeah, he said that it's, you know, later on I can send you a link. I'm sure it's on YouTube, but he said something to the effect that as long as it's a minor incursion, [00:09:51] Daryl Cagle: um, well, it's not like anybody saw this cartoon anyway. It's got Biden in it. Print it. Here's another Biden cartoon. Take that [00:10:00] Putin with the gas at $5 a gallon. [00:10:02] Gary McCoy: Yeah. I mean, talking about how the sanctions were going to hurt Russia and then the Rubal took off and did better than the US dollar. No real sign that the sanctions had any effect, and people still continued to die in Ukraine, but Americans are suffering. that's why I did this cartoon. Take that Putin [00:10:22] Rivers: Yeah, it's a great cartoon. Um, I, I kind of remember what, what Gary was talking about, the, the, you know, the little, the, you know, small incursion. Uh, I also remember Biden saying that if we send tanks into the Ukraine, that was World War iii. Well, I guess that's what we're. Uh, so [00:10:39] Daryl Cagle: they, oh, they certainly took Crimea. They took a good chunk of the east before that, and they took, uh, the northern part of Georgia. Mm-hmm. , uh, we have, we had a tradition of, uh, just letting them do that. Yeah. And I'd like to point out, this goes back many decades. [00:10:54] Rivers: Yes. And, but I'd like to point out that those weren't, uh, during the Trump years, those were during the Obama [00:11:00] years. So I I love doing that. Yes. Because, and, and also the, this invasion happened during the Biden years. You can make the argument that, this may not have happened had it been, had Trump won the election. [00:11:14] Daryl Cagle: That sounds so unlikely since Trump was so, pro Putin on all of this. Well, he [00:11:20] Rivers: was, uh, he, well, when you say [00:11:23] Daryl Cagle: He was quite the, uh, anti Ukraine guy with all of his Ukraine nonsense. Right? But, so it's hard to imagine him supporting Ukraine. [00:11:31] Rivers: I, I, okay, so when you say pro Putin, um, this is, this is where, you know, like different worlds again, because what with, Trump the way I see it, uh, he, he just wanted to get along with Putin because he saw Putin as being a, a nuclear power. He is the head of a nuclear power. And as he said, many times, isn't it better to get along with these guys? That's why he got along with, uh, Kim Jong-Un. Um, it, it's just, it's better [00:12:00] to kind of make friends. Uh, [00:12:01] Daryl Cagle: well now he's quite explicit about it and he's, uh, pretty darn anti sending aid to, to Ukraine. Not that relevant since he's not president now, but it's certainly pretty explicit now. [00:12:12] Rivers: Well, we are, we are sending a lot of aid to the Ukraine. A lot of tax dollars are going over there. So I think a lot of people are starting to, to wonder, you know, are we just throwing money, uh, out? when, when you consider how many, social issues are happening here, you, you have, people that are living on the street. Do you have, vets that are, needing assistance? So all of this money is going over to the Ukraine. [00:12:35] Daryl Cagle: I think Ukraine's an important issue and it's frustrating to me as the guy that runs the editorial cartoon business that, the cartoons about Ukraine are ignored by editors broadly, uh, as is anything that happens out of, America's borders. Mm-hmm. . So, uh, frustrating. So here's, here's Biden, and he's got. Little baby, president Zelensky on his lap, and he's given him a [00:13:00] big giant bottle of 40 billion of Ukraine aid to the baby Zelensky. But then there's a poor American baby who's not so fat, who has a tiny little bottle and just isn't getting much milk. [00:13:14] Rivers: I think that that kind of speaks to what I just said. [00:13:17] Daryl Cagle: It does. That illustrates your comments. [00:13:19] Rivers: It does. And, we have to examine whether or not this is actually doing any good because, it obviously, Putin's, uh, had some issues, you know, with his plans to, invade Ukraine, but at the same time, they are talking about a another offensive and it almost seems like it's gonna be inevitable. Unless we continue to send more aid. And then the question is, how much do we wanna keep doing? How much involvement, once we start sending fighters, are we not kind of like, baby stepping into the third world war? And that's something that uh we should all be very, concerned about. [00:13:54] Daryl Cagle: Okay, so moving along, Gary, on your cartoons, we're going into your Fauci cartoons. [00:14:00] Another crazy thing about conservatives, I think is their, universal, uh, discussed with Dr. Fauci and, you guys do draw it. And here's a couple guys talking to each other. One is the guy who loves vaccine. He's got a heart and a needle on his chest just showing his love graphically. And he says he's got this giant fauci head growth popping out of his back like a tumor. And he says the fauci head, oh, it didn't start sprouting until after by fourth booster, but I'm okay with it. So Gary, what's going on here? Are you shouting out how, vaccines are unsafe? [00:14:40] Gary McCoy: Not only that which has been proven true lately, it's just the media, everyone's love affair with this guy. you had m Snbc anchors, with fauci pillows. You had, the Michigan governor, with, uh, you like little Fauci dolls on her [00:15:00] bookshelves behind her. The emails, the everything that's come out between him and the NIH director about, squashing any conspiracy theorists. In the face of the facts that early on there was word that the virus escaped from the Wuhan lab and everybody just kept doing whatever he said he could, profess that masks aren't needed and then masks are needed. And then he's at a baseball game, not wearing a mask. And I just couldn't stand his hypocrisy. I just couldn't stand the side of him pretty much at a point when he was pretty much controlling, our country's covid policy. my son's school, luckily, he goes to a Catholic school, so his school didn't really shut down at all. And yet all around him, all the public schools in this area and like throughout the country, were shutting down. And now we find out how that harmed the children when it was never really necessary. Countries in Europe that didn't shut down. The kids fared no worse than they did here, and it [00:16:00] was just all of that, the way he controlled so much and hurt so many people with his policies. My wife, um, was gonna lose her job at a local hospital because she wasn't vaccinated. I wrote a letter of, exemption for her based on religious reasons, and she was granted that. , but the, the fact that she could have had lost her job, which would've been our health insurance and other people who did all because of this guy who the highest paid government bureaucrat and has been proven to have lied. And so my frustration with this cartoon obviously was with the people who just did, you know, the fauci yard signs, did everything this guy said and didn't, didn't question it at all. And, the good thing about doing editorial cartoons, I don't know this probably maybe never got picked up, but I know there are like-minded people like me out there, lots of them and people who saw the truth. And it's a way for me to connect with them and. And I'm sure I got a few, [00:17:00] you know, hell yeahs out of it. [00:17:02] Daryl Cagle: Very few. Cuz I'm guessing it didn't get reprinted much. Yeah. And it, you know, this stuff does sound like the conservative crazy to me. , [00:17:10] Gary McCoy: you're conservative. Crazy. My conservative truth, but I get it. So here's [00:17:13] Daryl Cagle: another, uh, Fauci cartoon. You love the Fauci cartoons. You've got four panels. It says things proven to be ineffective against covid, cloth masks, plexiglass barriers, spraying packages. And this guy Fauci , Fauci Bashian. You guys have such passion about him. Uh, crazy that he draws passion. [00:17:35] Rivers: So, uh, it does appear that, Covid 19 came from Wuhan. They've just admitted to it. And so the question is, uh, what was, what was the US' role in this? What was FCIs role? And of course, now it's, it's come out that, echo Health, uh, that it was funded through EcoHealth, and there's been, uh, uh, somewhat of a, I think, uh, uh, Elon Musk tweeted something to that effect. So this guy, uh, went in front of [00:18:00] Congress and said, well, you know, he, he hadn't been doing gain of function research. And of course it really comes down to semantics. Uh, what was he doing? I think that he's far more involved in this stuff than he's letting on. And, uh, the other thing I don't understand about liberals, , um, how is it that that fauci can do things like, um, um, experiment on beagles and, and the kind of experiments were, were extremely, torturous? And how is it that, that liberals just kind of went Well, no, no issue. Just, just the shoulder shrug. I find that almost, uh, [00:18:38] Daryl Cagle: oh, I'm, I'm not shoulder shrugging cuz I've never heard anything about experimenting on be. [00:18:43] Rivers: y That's just the thing. And, and I wonder, the reason why, um, liberals and conservatives don't get along is because it, it's like liberals live in their world. Um, they listen to their, the, their voices, their trusted voices, here's the problem. [00:19:00] Conservatives actually hear your voices. They hear CNN and msn, b c, but we also, uh, do the dreaded thing and we, we, we follow what happens or we listen to what happens, uh, from say, uh, Tucker Carlson or, some other, conservative commentators, a lot of independence. And, what they say is often under reported, if reported at all. And it's there, it happens. And, and yet for some reason, the liberal media chooses not to report the full story. And that is where we have a problem. ? [00:19:39] Daryl Cagle: Yeah, because the flip side of that is that the conservative media is just reporting a bunch of, nonsense with an agenda. [00:19:47] Rivers: Okay. So I would almost ask, like, gimme an example of that and then let, let's talk about that. What, what would be, [00:19:54] Daryl Cagle: The example is it's the, election was stolen. [00:19:59] Rivers: Oh, okay. [00:20:00] Well, from the conservative point of view, there were a lot of anomalies. Um, at Case and point, the, the most recent one, the 2000 and, uh, 20. Well, do you [00:20:09] Daryl Cagle: believe the, the election was stolen? [00:20:12] Rivers: I think that there was a lot of anomalies that I would like to investigate it. Sure. Like, uh, [00:20:17] Gary McCoy: but [00:20:17] Daryl Cagle: do [00:20:17] Gary McCoy: you think it was stolen? Can I, can I chime in when Rivers is done? Sure. Do you think it was stolen, Gary? I think what? [00:20:24] Rivers: I was just gonna, I was just gonna finish up my thought here and just say, it's almost like career suicide when you say it stolen. Uh, I would say that it, there was an a lot of anomalies and for some reason there was a push to just kind of pass things to not, to not give it a fair hearing. And as a result, a lot of conservatives just kind of, uh, you know, then you're just breeding conservative, or not conservative, but conspiracy theory because people are going, what are you hiding? Um, this was not fairly, uh, uh, arbitrate it and, and or, or discussed or, or negotiated, but [00:20:58] Daryl Cagle: there were not a lot of anomal. , [00:21:00] [00:21:00] Rivers: uh, again, this is where it's under reported. I think that there were a lot, and, uh, and I don't think [00:21:08] Daryl Cagle: that, well, they were reported very, very explicitly, you know, uh, lawsuits in every state that lost, and all the things that, uh, they were making accusations about without mm-hmm. proof. Um, it certainly was reported, anomalies were reported and, debunked. [00:21:25] Gary McCoy: Here's what conservatives mean when they say the election was stolen. What they mean is that the Democrats used the pandemic as an excuse to change voting laws. Mm-hmm. unconstitutionally within the states. because under the premise that people could not go to the polls because we have this horrible virus, which turns out actually has a very, had a very low [00:22:00] fatality rate. The young and healthy, uh, children were, were virtually at no more risk to covid than they would be by influenza. But the Democrats, largely Democrat governors shut down their states, amplified, exaggerated the Covid virus to change voting laws just like they did to shut down businesses. And it was that, that the voting laws were changed mail-in voting, uh, like it had never been done before. Uh, drop boxes, um, ballot harvesting that was never done before in this country. And. That we believe is what allowed Biden, who can't even dis distinguish between his sister and his wife to get elected [00:23:00] by 80 million votes more than Barack Obama got. If you can believe that, that Joe Biden, the guy who, yeah, I [00:23:07] Daryl Cagle: do believe that because people were voting against Trump. And you know, it, it seems to me that that's what the conservative arguments about the election boil down to. We just can't believe that you people would've voted for Biden because Biden is so terrible and with that as a baseline, everything else falls into place because it's just, uh, an unbelievable conclusion. So there must be reasons for something you can't. [00:23:33] Gary McCoy: Well, I, I'll give you that. Trump was the, the media did a really good job in vilifying Trump every chance they got. And, uh, it would've been a amazing had he won, given that the whole media establishment was against him and. just, just attacked him relentlessly. Um, [00:23:56] Daryl Cagle: perhaps it would be amazing if he won because he let it [00:24:00] insurrection on the capitol. [00:24:01] Gary McCoy: Now. There we go. It wasn't an insurrection. Oh, I see. There we go. There there wasn't an insurrection. There we go. . [00:24:08] Rivers: Yeah, there. Come on. You know, and that's the thing. Can I, can I just butt in here? Of course. Okay, so you have, you have a few hundred crazies, right? Um, that's not an, an insurrection. Most of the people that were at the capitol that day, uh, were not, uh, violent. Were not as, as you guys like to say, uh, mostly peaceful protests. Um, there were a [00:24:34] Daryl Cagle: few, it looked to me like there were thousands of people [00:24:37] Rivers: that were, were violent and, and, and yet, and yet, here's the, here's the thing. In your, in your media, what you always see is the, the violent, you know, the, the, the pushing up against the fence. Um, you know, that kind of stuff where there was, uh, uh, bombs, there were, uh, not, not so much bombs, sorry. The um, um, The, you know, the, the police, uh, being pushed [00:25:00] and, and things like that. But inside the Capitol you have people that look like they're actually taking, uh, a stroll through a, you know, they're, they're having like a tourist, uh, moment and they're just walking, uh, through the Capitol building, uh, uh, uh, very peacefully by the way. Um, when you say [00:25:15] Daryl Cagle: you see, uh, let's not, what I see. [00:25:18] Rivers: Well, and that's just the thing, uh, that's why I say the media is not reporting the full story. It tell, it, it, it emphasizes the, the violence. And there was a little, there were a lot, or however you wanna say it, but [00:25:34] Daryl Cagle: yeah, there was, I people were injured there. White who guyses on the wall. They're breaking into offices, breaking into the Senate [00:25:40] Rivers: chambers. But, but Darryl, but Darrell who died, the [00:25:43] Gary McCoy: conservative, the only person, the only person who died was, uh, Ashley Babbitt. The only person who died as a direct result on the day January 6th, was an unarmed female veteran shot in cold blood by, because the [00:25:55] Daryl Cagle: Capitol Hill policeman injured policeman that died a day later. You don't count [00:26:00] him cuz that's a day later. And it [00:26:02] Gary McCoy: wasn't proven that he, [00:26:04] Rivers: yeah, Daryl, it wasn't proven that he died from his injury. He died. He again, you know, this is, you guys wanna, uh, [00:26:12] Daryl Cagle: this is the crazy that we hear. And No, no, I appreciate that. Even though, uh, most of the people in our syndicate and your editors are not on board with the positions that you strongly hold, we do post your cartoons and very rarely, uh, very rarely kill one of your cartoons. I mean, I kill your cartoons at the rate of as many as I would kill from anybody else. Um, and so we appreciate that, uh, you know, a appreciate that. We want to have all views in our syndicate, but, the stuff that I hear as crazy, would it send your cartoons? The cartoons just don't get printed. You should be aware of that. I don't need to kill anything because the editors just don't run it. [00:26:58] Gary McCoy: And that's why I've never done a [00:27:00] Ashley Babbitt cartoon because I'm aware that most of the people out there are not being given the true facts. Uh, that she was shot in cold blood. She wasn't a threat to the, to the Capitol Hill policeman on the other side of the door, uh, at all. She was 130 pound woman unarmed. But that's why I never, I didn't do a cartoon on that because again, I, I knew instinctively that it's not gonna get picked up. [00:27:27] Rivers: So Darrell, do you, do you think that the, the media does give you the entire truth? Do you think that you get every, every angle, especially when it comes to, you're talking about the January 6th. Do you think that you saw all the videos you need to see? , do you, do you ever question, uh, uh, certain people, uh, like, um, Ray eps, why it is that a guy who's yelling at people to go into the Capitol is not arrested for inciting violence. And yet the conservatives say, well, this [00:28:00] guy looks like he was f FBI or paid by the F fbi. And the liberals say, well, he was nobody. Just leave him alone. And why is it that the January [00:28:10] Daryl Cagle: I, I've gotta say I'm, I haven't really studied my, uh, conservative conspiracy theory on this, and I'm not really familiar with Ray Epps [00:28:18] Rivers: again. And this is where, and you just proved my point. You absolutely just proved my point because Ray Epps is a key figure. And he was a guy who literally, he was yelling at people to go into the capitol. And for some reason, uh, the media does not report on these things. What you saw was half the story. And this is, [00:28:42] Daryl Cagle: this is, I spent thousands of people. I mean, that looks like more than half to me. And yet you, but hey, we've got lots more, we've got lots more provocative cartoons to go through. Yeah. And, uh, a whole lot of, uh, entirely different worldview for us to deal [00:28:57] Rivers: with. [00:28:57] Daryl Cagle: So, Gary, here's your cartoon super [00:29:00] spreader and you've got the Democrat donkey and he's spreading the poo poo, which is labeled Covid Fear Bs across his green lawn. Uh, tell us about this one. Uh, also, I should say anytime that you have poo poo in a cartoon, nobody prints so . [00:29:18] Gary McCoy: Okay. Darn . Cause I have like, like a hundred poo poo cartoons in my archives. I was waiting to crank out. Uh, now this one's kind of, we kind of like went over this, you know, pretty extensively. But this is just another take of mine on, uh, on, on the c v d poo poo that's been spread throughout the so-called pandemic. So that's, that's all that is basically. [00:29:44] Daryl Cagle: Okay. Here is, uh, peanuts cartoon, Linus and Sally in the pumpkin patch. Good Halloween cartoon. Linus says, tonight is the night the great bipartisan pumpkin will come, and Sally thinks he's lasted . [00:30:00] Yeah, I'm sure this one got preprinted a lot. [00:30:04] Gary McCoy: Yeah, I think it got in your top 10 for that week. And, uh, again, pretty neutral, just commenting on, how bipartisanship is rare in DC nowadays and using the timeless, uh, Linus in the pumpkin patch. So, It was fun to drop. [00:30:22] Daryl Cagle: Very good. Here we've got the old couple at home old man's looking out the window. He is got his skillet and his spatula and, his wife is looking at the newspaper that says there's high inflation. The old man says, let's hope some kids egg our house so I can go scrape it off for supper. Boy, cartoonists have been loving the expensive eggs. . [00:30:42] Gary McCoy: I don't know if the egg prices were up when I did this or if it was just related to the general inflation prices for food, but it was, again, something I could do that was timely for Halloween and, uh, and tie it into the, to the inflation. Food prices as well. [00:30:59] Daryl Cagle: [00:31:00] Okay, here you've got the guy at the lemonade stand and he's taken off all his clothes and his wallet and his credit card and his watch, and he says, okay, $20 cash credit cards, my suit and Rolex inflation. And the little kid says, enjoy your lemonade. Lemonade's getting expensive too. , I'm sure this one was quite popular. [00:31:21] Gary McCoy: Yeah. Again, just a a fun gag type cartoon idea to, to do [00:31:26] Daryl Cagle: So Rivers, this is your most popular cartoon ever with editors. Here you've got, two black pots labeled left and right. Biden is in the left pot. And Biden says to the mega guy in the right pot, he says, you've become more extreme over the years. Right. It's a beautiful looking cartoon. Very graphically clean. I love this cartoon. [00:31:48] Rivers: Yeah, thanks. This is one of those things where car, this isn't a cartoon that I would've picked. In fact, I don't think I did pick this one. Um, but it, it was [00:31:58] Daryl Cagle: by far your [00:32:00] most popular [00:32:00] Rivers: culture. Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. And, and it's not one that I'm particularly like excited about. I'm, I, I guess I get more passionate about the other cartoons in which I think I'm really making a statement cuz I'm an editorial cartoonist. Right. But, uh, this one, would be popular with a lot of editors given where newspapers are at. [00:32:18] Daryl Cagle: Here's your second most, uh, popular cartoon. It's Santa. And he's, looking at his, complex dashboard on his sleigh. And the little elf is trying to look at where to plug it in. And he says, I don't think we thought this electric conversion through. And of course, this is Christmas. I mean, that's the six weeks of cartoons that editors want the most. . [00:32:38] Rivers: Yeah. And that, that's the thing around Christmas, I, I tend to get a little bit more, you know, warm and fuzzy as well. I tend to, to, to lay off the heavy handed, editorial comments and, just kind of stick to something that's, that's something that, that everyone can kind of agree with or, yeah. Your drawings are beautiful. Well, [00:32:56] Daryl Cagle: thank you. Okay. Your third most popular cartoon, you've got the [00:33:00] couple, they're looking at the floor and the man says, it's so hot. The pavement didn't just fro the egg, it made it into a little Kesh. It put a little partially besides it. Oh, of course. , they, they love this one. They love cartoons about, it's so hot or it's so cold. Um mm-hmm. , [00:33:17] Rivers: oh, it's so wet. And again, it's, it's all on fire. Yeah. Totally non-political. And, and again, that doesn't surprise me. [00:33:23] Daryl Cagle: Here, I'm going into your Biden cartoons. You've got Biden, coming up on the Turkey, like a lady, uh, that he snuggles up to who just happens to be in the room and he says, Hmm, you smell good in the Turkey. Thinks kill me now. I think that's funny. Yeah. [00:33:40] Rivers: Well, you know, there's, there's tons, there's tons of images of Biden, sniffing people, whether it's, older women or young girls, or even young boys. And within conservative media we see it all the time. And even on social media, the, he's, he's sniffing everybody. Uh, and that's why he is called creepy Joe. [00:33:56] Daryl Cagle: But this is funny and it's always in this. [00:34:00] This image, which is coming up on the back of the neck with a hand on the shoulder. [00:34:05] Rivers: Yeah, he seems to have a thing for it. I don't know. Uh, , I, I guess I should just keep my comments to myself on that one. [00:34:13] Daryl Cagle: here you've got Biden and he's, uh, got his hand on the doggy sitting in the chair. Doggy is got the label f b and Biden says, who is daddy's good boy. Because, in the conservative view, the FBI is, the lap dog is in the, uh, the conspiracy going after the conservatives. Well, I [00:34:35] Rivers: don't think it's a conspiracy. I actually think that they have been weaponized. And I think even some of these, these, uh, congress, congressional hearings, uh, you know, with regards to, uh, the F B I and how they, they treat, uh, conservatives has been somewhat revealing. [00:34:52] Daryl Cagle: Uh, so, so why would you not call it a, a conspiracy if it's multiple people working toward, an illicit purpose? [00:34:57] Rivers: I think it's, I think it's just a bias. I wouldn't [00:35:00] call it a con. I don't think that they meet behind closed doors and say, let's get the conservatives. I think it's just the bias. Uh, although we did see by the way, uh, with the Twitter files that it was a conspiracy and so, I can remember when I was always told that I was conspiracy theorist when I, when I would say that, conservatives were being, wrongly targeted and banned off social media, when in fact the Twitter files prove exactly what we've been saying for the last seven years. And so another conspiracy theory goes, you know, down in smoke and becomes conspiracy fact. It's the same [00:35:37] Gary McCoy: thing with, [00:35:37] Daryl Cagle: well, Caglecartoons is, uh, mainstream media. And, uh, we haven't banned you guys. Oh, of course. I about you. We love [00:35:45] Rivers: you guys. Yes. And I, and I thank you for that. I mean, it's, it is obviously, you know, there's not every. every, you know, social media out there, but it is obviously with the Twitter files, we see, uh, in the [00:36:00] emails, uh, exactly what went on. And so, , with, uh, Garland's testimony, he looked like, um, well, uh, the guy, the guy, I've never seen anybody shake so badly. And it was just, I think it's just because it became to light the stuff that he's, uh, with regards. Okay. With regards to the, uh, Marla Lago, raid, it appears that it, there was, it was quite a controversy within the F B I he [00:36:26] Daryl Cagle: gave us, but, but I, I watched the same thing and he seemed like, a reasonable guy to me. And the screaming Republicans, sounded like the nuts, we watch the same, same things and see something different. [00:36:37] Rivers: Yeah, no, I definitely saw, I definitely saw a lot of, uh, squeamishness there, but [00:36:42] Daryl Cagle: I mean, so we've got, uh, Biden walking away from, uh, nuclear mushroom cloud, and he says, because provoking a third world war with nuclear powers is way better than mean tweets. [00:36:53] Rivers: Right? And now of course, that's referring to Trump with the main, uh, tweets. And I think we talked a little bit about that, uh, even, [00:37:00] uh, before taping um, it seems to me that, with Biden, if it weren't for, , Biden being president, we probably wouldn't be in the situations we're in, uh, with regards to, Russia and, even the economy with, high inflation. I have my explanations for that too, but I'm sure you'd probably disagree. Yeah. I don't [00:37:18] Daryl Cagle: see him provoking a third World War. , but you knew that. These cartoons about the last year being so terrible. Those are always beloved new Year's cartoons. And here you've got, uh, all kinds of, uh, crazy stuff happening in 2023. So far so good. Uh, with the Create Monsters and Nutty Spider-Man, [00:37:39] Rivers: I used to be a big Spider-Man fan. We all get our start. And with me it was drawing Spider-Man I just decided to draw Spider-Man for whatever reason. And, uh, so that image came first and I'm, I'm very lazy by the way, so I decided, well, how can I work this into an editorial cartoon? And I think it was at the beginning of the year, and I thought that the [00:38:00] past year, 2022 was absolutely nutty. Quite frankly, if you look at the past month alone, uh, we've already had like, you know, flying objects, uh, kind of, uh, experience with the balloons and, and the shoot downs and stuff. So that's already on my bingo card. That's been, that's been, uh, hit. Um, so far the, the, the media of death hasn't happened, but you never know. It's the, the, the year is young. Um, and, and you've got, uh, you know, uncle Sam is a clown and sometimes, uh, it seems like a clown world, right? With, with what's, what's going on. So, um, yeah, this was, this was a really fun one to do. , it's one of my favorites. And yet it, [00:38:40] Daryl Cagle: it's fun and, uh, it's neither liberal or conservative because e everybody thinks, the world is going crazy. And so here's, uh, uncle Sam at the psychiatric hospital. He's feeding the pigeons and the doctors are observing him saying he used to be a world leader. Then he started hating the color of his skin, his family [00:39:00] history, and stopped believing in God. Now he's on suicide watch. Mm-hmm. . I, and I guess that's the short description of liberals. [00:39:09] Rivers: It really comes down to how I see the US today. I think that, uh, if, if it continues to go in the direction it's going, uh, It's not gonna end well. And it's like insanity because we had the greatest country in the world. We had unity, and for some reason, this constant picking at ourselves and picking at our history and picking at, uh, everything that we ever were and all of our values, it's self-hatred. And unfortunately, I don't see a good end for this. Um, and as, as Jesus said, and I know that, people will have questions about, you know, Jesus. Uh, but he did say that a house divided, cannot stand. And that's what we're seeing with the us. [00:39:52] Daryl Cagle: and Gary, you of course agree with all [00:39:54] Gary McCoy: that. Yeah. I, I'm sitting here wishing I had a Bick lighter so I could hold it up in the air . [00:40:00] Okay. [00:40:02] Daryl Cagle: Here's, uh, uncle Sammy, he's sitting in the position of Rowan's the Thinker sculpture, and it says The Thinker. And Uncle Sam is thinking 20 years later, two wasted wars, multiple failed states, thousands dead trillions wasted. What am I doing wrong? [00:40:22] Rivers: Exactly. And, and, and again, you know, this is, uh, almost rides on the coat tells of the other one. I've been thinking a lot about the future of the United States, and quite frankly, I'm going short on the us. Of course, someone's always, I've always heard, never bet against the US and I, I still believe that in, you know, my heart of hearts. But there's a part of me that really worries about. where we're going, and where we're, what's gonna happen in the next, uh, 10 years if we continue with the self hatred? Well, if we continue with the demonization of each side,, there, there's not gonna be a country. [00:40:58] Daryl Cagle: Here we've got a six panel, [00:41:00] cartoon and, uh, donkey, [00:41:02] Rivers: and we have enemies, right? [00:41:03] Daryl Cagle: So this one, the elephant talking to each other and, and the elephant says, Canada had an election. Voter IDs were required to vote no mail-in ballots without registration and approval. No voter machines, no late night shenanigans. And the donkey says, geez, how can anyone steal an election? Hypothetically speaking of [00:41:24] Rivers: course, [00:41:25] Daryl Cagle: And of course you agree with that, Gary? [00:41:27] Gary McCoy: Yeah, absolutely. Everything. Wholeheartedly. A hundred percent. [00:41:31] Daryl Cagle: All right, so here's the very creepy character in the little girl's room. And he's got tattoos that say, uh, Facebook logo addiction, depression, self-esteem issues, suicide. And he saying to the little girl, mark Zuckerberg sent me, I'm your new babysitter. She's sitting there with her computer, uh, presumably on Facebook. Um, it's a dangerous world. [00:41:59] Rivers: Yeah. [00:42:00] And you know, I, I'm a parent and, uh, when, when my daughter was that age, uh, I was always concerned about, uh, online, predators. I think that was a reaction to, uh, there was a Facebook, study that revealed that, uh, that usage, uh, did in, it did in increase, uh, suicide for young people, especially young girls. Uh, and so that was a reaction to that, that, uh, we shouldn't be leaving our children, uh, with Mark Zuckerberg or anybody else for that matter. Um, we should be taking a more active role as parents, uh, with our kids. And of course, we're [00:42:37] Daryl Cagle: seeing either left or right cartoon, and I, I'll bet this one got pretty well reprinted. Mm-hmm. . . And here you got the two little kids looking up at two little love birds on a branch. And little boy says, I'm thankful for everything, even small things. This is like a, a Hallmark card. It's mm-hmm. , a lovely little drawing. And I can, I can see, um, I can see editors [00:43:00] loving this. Yeah. [00:43:01] Rivers: And, and was this a Valentine's Day card? No, this, uh, let's see. No, this was Thanksgiving. Um, and, and for some reason, I'm sorry, because he's thankful. I'm sorry. [00:43:14] Daryl Cagle: Yes. He's thankful. It's Thanksgiving and he's [00:43:15] Rivers: thankful. Yes, absolutely. And I kind of, I do like this one because it, it, it's kind of heartwarming and, and even though I, I might come across a little bit, uh, like a, a a a right wing conspiracy theorist, um, I actually do, uh, uh, um, you know, love and cherish children and, uh, uh, I, I'd like to think that I have good values. [00:43:39] Daryl Cagle: Okay, here you are in the boardroom, news division. Prophets are down. And, uh, the old CEO says, here's a novel idea. How about we start reporting the truth? Think we can imagine that this one looks more like a, a left wing cartoon about Fox. [00:43:54] Rivers: But you know, if you look at what's happening in the news industry, it's, it's, um, [00:44:00] uh, Washington Post is, it lost like 500,000, uh, subscribers since Trump left. Um, they've also been, uh, um, in the midst of, uh, some mass layoffs. Um, that's true for a lot of newspapers across the board, especially in liberal newspapers. But, uh, in, in an alternate universe, what's happening on the conservative side is you. News organizations like Newsmax that are growing exponentially, and, uh, well, [00:44:30] Daryl Cagle: Newsmax has certainly seen a crash and they were d uh, platformed by DirecTV, which was like 90% of their income, and they're just, uh, there's a question of whether they're viable at all. I wouldn't be surprised if Fox ceases to exist when they lose the Dominion lawsuit. . [00:44:48] Rivers: yeah, there, there's, there's a lot, there's a lot that can happen between now and then and, and certainly in the discovery. There's been some things that have come up, uh, [00:44:57] Daryl Cagle: that also when you talk about the, [00:45:00] uh, the newspapers cutting back, that is universal across almost all newspapers. [00:45:06] Rivers: Well, I, I'm thinking it's only a couple years before somebody writes a nice algorithm for doing editorial cartoons and then , we're gonna be strict. You [00:45:15] Daryl Cagle: know, we're you, I think the next thing that's gonna happen is we, we get all of these, submissions from people that can't draw, and that's kind of , a baseline, you know, the, there aren't that many people that draw well and can draw a cartoon, but everybody thinks they're a writer. And you can have all these people that can suddenly put in a lovely, drawn cartoon and then they're gonna be putting their. Whatever their point of view is on it, and we're just gonna be inundated with that stuff. We get people submitting memes to us. They'll steal a photograph on the web. Mm. They'll put their words on top of it. Then they'll want us to syndicate their, words on top of their stolen art. That's what I see happening. And then the question for us is, if somebody writes good cartoons and they're using ai, is that something we should consider? I'm kind of disinclined to [00:46:00] consider that. Mm-hmm. , [00:46:02] Rivers: you know, I, I'd also like, uh, to add to the point to this cartoon that, part of my thinking was that, what we're seeing is a, a distrust of journalism. [00:46:10] Daryl Cagle: Here you've got a lovely looking dragon. That's China. Just about to eat Taiwan for lunch. And it says, meanwhile, as the world focuses on Russia,, China is about to chew up Taiwan. Uh mm-hmm. , it's a lovely drawing. [00:46:25] Rivers: Yeah, and it's a, it's kind of like an ongoing, fear that you have that, uh, one day we're gonna have to face this, monster, because China is, is def and even now, I mean more so they're starting to beat the war drums, uh, more over, uh, uh, Taiwan and being very, [00:46:43] Daryl Cagle: do you have to look at the cartoons by our Chinese cartoonist Luchi? [00:46:47] Rivers: Uh, yeah. He's, he's actually really, really , a great cartoonist. I love his work. [00:46:52] Daryl Cagle: He's an excellent cartoonist, but he is quite the propagandist for China. I've seen that. Yes. I was thinking of having a [00:47:00] podcast just to talk about, uh, Lui's work because, some of it I think is pretty shocking to Americans. And, it'll be an interesting topic that would be, he's, uh, Well, but I move on. you've got big tech with a giant sword looking like a big Roman, warrior, and he's got John k public, stabbed at the end of the Sword. And John k public says Whatever happened to do no evil. [00:47:26] Rivers: Can I tell you what happened here? So this is one of those ones that's almost prophetic, right? Because at that time everybody was saying that, uh, uh, the g o P is gonna have this red wave. It's gonna be great. You know, they're gonna take over the house, they're gonna blow out the Senate. It's gonna be amazing. And I, I kept thinking to myself, these guys are going screw up. They always screw up. There's one thing, if there's one thing you can count on, it's, it's death taxes and the g o p screwing up because it seems like there are a bunch of morons and, well, was I right? This was drawn months before I was [00:48:00] right. So I, I actually reposted it because I thought, you know, this, actually is exactly what they do. They fumble every time. [00:48:07] Daryl Cagle: it does seem like Democrats do a lot of fumbling. Oh, here is Liz Cheney as a Rhino Republican in name only, and it says Liz Cheney now has the floor I I love the way that you handled her glasses, [00:48:20] Rivers: Yeah. You know, this is one of those ones that, I don't know why I like it, but I do, and I think it's because it, it, it kind of looks like her . [00:48:29] Daryl Cagle: It does. It's a name calling cartoon. Um, it is. And you find that name calling. Cartoons tend to not perform very well. Yeah. Although the drawings are, it, it seems that's something that editors discern. And even if it's somebody they want a name call against, they usually don't go with just the name calling. But it's a lovely drawing and the glasses made me. [00:48:50] Rivers: Yeah, I, and I think the cartoon has merit, just for that reason. I mean, obviously the editors are going to, uh, panic because it's obviously highly political, [00:49:00] but, uh, I think that she's proven herself to be somewhat of a rhino, uh, amongst conservatives. [00:49:07] Daryl Cagle: And this is your Red Wave cartoon is a cute one, but you know, this was quite the yai I think we [00:49:12] Rivers: got about Oh yeah, there was tons after that. I, I was the, I hate to say it, I was the first, uh, I give you [00:49:18] Daryl Cagle: credit for being first. [00:49:19] Rivers: Yeah. By quite a, uh, wide margin too. There were, there were cartoons that looked exactly like that. Like three days later I'm like, Hey guys. Uh, it's already been done, but, it was a popular image. Right? And it's kinda like the most obvious one. I don't get any marks for originality on this. This is kind [00:49:35] Daryl Cagle: of like, you do get marks for originality because when you draw it, first editors run your cartoon and all those guys that are late, their cartoon doesn't get run. [00:49:42] Rivers: So, uh, yeah. Well, I'd argue it's just as, it's a stereotypical image. It's, there's nothing, you know, it's not particularly insightful or great. It was just one of those, well, where's the red wave? Right? It was just like a little, well, Here, [00:49:55] Daryl Cagle: you've got the ground hog talking to, uh, uh, disinterested Barry with his hand in the [00:50:00] honey jar. Ground hug says, do you have any idea the amount of und millions of people rely on me to make or break their plans for spring? And the bear says, dude, you look like one day a year. I'm sure they love that one. I didn't check the stats, but I'll put That's a big [00:50:20] Rivers: performer. So, uh, the history on that one was a, again, it's a, it's almost like a little sketchbook one where I was, I was sitting there with my, uh, my partner watching tv and, uh, I often have my IPO pad out with, uh, procreate, and I'll just be sketching. And, uh, this one was kind of like, it was a little tiny thumbnail. It was, it was so tiny, but I was just drawing this bear. And, um, and then, then of course, the groundhog, I kind of made it work, uh, for an editorial cartoon because of course I like to, uh, maximize on my drawing and, and kind of lazy that way. But the reason I, the reason why I really like this cartoon is it's kind of a, [00:51:00] it's different than my normal style. It's, it's more of. It's almost like an old English, book illustration style, which, uh, I kind of, I don't know why it kind of strikes me that way, but it does. So I, that's why I like it, cuz it's not my usual crap. [00:51:16] Daryl Cagle: And here you've got, uh, George Washington holding the newspaper that says Wither America, 246 years later. Uh, again, this is neither left or right, both sides would agree with this one. It's, uh, the World is Going To Hell Cartoon. [00:51:30] Rivers: I kind of explained myself earlier on that, that, uh, sure. It's, uh, [00:51:34] Daryl Cagle: and here you've got a U F O and the, the alien standing below the U F O says, We traveled 300 light years to destroy your species, but then we watched your news broadcast, said, realized you are doing it for [00:51:49] Rivers: us . I just realized I should probably be taking Prozac, um, because I've been doing a lot of , end of the world kind of things. Uh, end of the usa. [00:52:00] Uh, I'm, I should [00:52:01] Daryl Cagle: probably, you just got into what you, these are the cartoons you selected. It was the end of the world you had [00:52:06] Rivers: on your own. I know, I know. It seems to be a theme here. Doesn't [00:52:09] Daryl Cagle: doesn't it. It does. [00:52:11] Gary McCoy: I'd like to just say it's, encouraging Darrell, I've, we've known each other back in the NCS days, you know, and I've, I've joined your syndicate, what, 16 whatever years ago. And, uh, you know, we've, we've hung out at conventions and in France, but I never really knew. One thing I found out from talking to you today is that we kind of live in different worlds. And the things that I thought you would know, that I know from. Conservative media you're unaware of and maybe vice versa. So it kind of sheds the light a little bit. Cause I'm, I've always thought, you know, Darryl's such, a smart guy, he's a nice guy. How can he be such a crazy liberal? But now I know why, because you just don't get the same news that I do. [00:52:56] Daryl Cagle: How do you guys, ever learn about the Dominion lawsuit since that's [00:53:00] never been mentioned on. [00:53:01] Rivers: Do you watch Fox? Do you, do you watch, you do, do you watch, uh, Tucker Carlson? [00:53:06] Daryl Cagle: You know, actually I have a predisposition to like Tucker Carlson because when we were just starting off with our best political cartoons of the years books,, he was working for S n bbc and he was very nice and he wanted to be a columnist for us. And, uh, MB Snbc said no. And he wrote a, just a lovely forward for our, our political cartoons of the yearbook. We put his name real big on the cover, and he was the nicest guy and he was a, a cartoon fan. And, my experience with him has just been that he's a lovely, charming guy and, but I watch him on TV and I'm disturbed. [00:53:46] Rivers: Okay. So do you actually routinely watch him. [00:53:49] Daryl Cagle: mostly I flip back and forth. They've got this channel on DirecTV, which shows you all the news channels at once. Mm-hmm. and I flip back and forth [00:54:00] on them constantly through the day as I sit at my desk. So I don't really have any shows that I watch in particular. I just, I just. [00:54:08] Rivers: Yeah, I, I think Tucker is kind of like the gateway drug for, uh, for conservatism cuz if I think if you were to watch more Tucker and less, some of the other, and, you know, some of the nut cases on MSNBC and uh, cnn, you would find that you would begin to get a better insight into the conservative mind as, and you know, why they think the way they think. Um, but you wouldn't [00:54:31] Daryl Cagle: know anything about that Dominion lawsuit? [00:54:34] Rivers: Well, I think, well, maybe, I don't know if they've, I Okay. So I'll be Okay. So, uh, um, full disclosure here. I actually don't have a Fox News account. I don't watch Fox News, uh, as much as I probably would like to. Um, but, uh, but I do know. that, uh, that the dominion thing, um, obviously they're gonna avoid because they're, they're in litigation. So for that reason, I can imagine [00:55:00] that they're not gonna say anything that's gonna inflame it. But that said, uh, there's plenty of other conservative, uh, stories that you would get a better insight. If you were to, you know, just kind of spend some time listening to Tucker or, or some of these other things? Well, [00:55:16] Daryl Cagle: I do, I do spend quite a bit of time watching Fox as I flip back and forth, and they do seem, pretty crazy when I land there. And you certainly do see the difference. I mean, you see the difference in the Ukraine coverage is much less on Fox than there is on the other channels. Uh, but lots of of stories, it's just a, a very dramatic difference between the coverage. [00:55:37] Rivers: Oh, absolutely. And well, good example would be, uh, the three years of Russiagate with Trump. So the question is, um, you know, you had, you had, uh, Rachel Maddow and, and some of these other people going , full on, like Trump is, is 100% guilty of, colluding with, with Putin, you had a 30 million, investigation [00:56:00] with Mueller. And he came up with nothing. And yet the news organizations that you probably watched the most not only won Pulitzers for the, the fake coverage. What, but, but they continued with the narrative that was debunked. It was pretty much over, [00:56:19] Daryl Cagle: yeah. I didn't hear it as being debunked. It sounded pretty convincing to me. It led to an impeachment that had a pretty close vote. Um, right. But the impeachment, it was, uh, there was a lot of substance to that, and Mueller didn't find it without substance. He found that he was, uh, not in a position to take action on it. It was a legal decision. So, uh, yeah, I certainly don't see any of that. And I did watch Fox on that, and I, I certainly did see the difference in coverage and, and, uh, I, I wouldn't describe it the way you described it. Mm-hmm. as nothing there. I saw plenty there. Darrell does [00:56:56] Gary McCoy: the, uh, does the left leaning media that you watched, did it [00:57:00] cover Biden threatening to withhold foreign aid to Ukraine unless they fired the, uh, the investigator looking into Barisma? Because that's basically what, what Trump got impeached for was a phone call. Mm-hmm. . And, uh, and that's one of the contrasts that conservatives see as a pretty glaring is that that biden's in on air, on, on video. Well, it wasn't [00:57:29] Daryl Cagle: just the phone call bragging was firing the ambassador there. It was, uh, Rudy Giuliani's High Jinx over there. It was a, it was a long process of, uh, trying to twist the arms of the Ukrainians to go after Hunter Biden. It was a lot over a long period of time. [00:57:47] Gary McCoy: Well, like I said, we'll, we'll probably never totally agree on that, but it seems to me when, when a vice president is, is bragging about basically blackmail, [00:58:00] extorting, uh, a foreign country to do his bidding, that that, that should be worthy of at least as much scrutiny and punishment as, uh, as, as what Trump was impeached over. But again, that's, that's whats So what makes us see are [00:58:17] Daryl Cagle: I, I didn't get that outta the story at all. Well, yeah, we do, we do have these different worlds. [00:58:22] Rivers: True. Yeah. True. And that's, and that's actually why I am somewhat concerned because as long as we have these two different, um, um, uh, incredibly different paradigms, uh, of information misinformation, uh, we can never, ever really have, uh, solidarity or agree on anything. You [00:58:43] Daryl Cagle: know, one that I thought was interesting recently was, uh, Biden State of the Union address, and I was busy doing my flipping back and forth right after. The speech to get a sense of what the different channels were saying. And you know, immediately after the speech, you had Brit Hume [00:59:00] on Fox saying, look at this guy. He's cile, he can't even string his sentences together. What a demonstration of what a, unfit president he is. And then I flipped the other channels and they were all singing as praises, what a strong speech. Look how he put the Republicans of their place. Mm-hmm. . And, uh, you know, I watched it myself and I did not see what Fox saw, it just didn't exist. But you know, when, when you, when you come on top of something that everybody sees and then you redefine it and you've, uh, built up this trust, with the, the people who are doing the redefining, so you tend to believe them. Well, that's how it all works. [00:59:37] Rivers: Well, we're gonna convert you yet . It's, it's gonna take time, but you'll, you'll eventually be red pilled like us. And, and I think that, uh, uh, you'll start to see things our way as soon as we, as soon as we can kind of show you where you've not been, uh, properly, given the. . [00:59:54] Daryl Cagle: Well, you've, gone Mad Rivers, but, uh, [00:59:58] Rivers: Everybody's gonna remember me is [01:00:00] this nutcase with a mask. And, uh, not only do I have conspiracy theories, but I also, you know, have this early crazy hair in this weird mask well, that [01:00:08] Daryl Cagle: is absolutely true, . So, gentlemen, uh, thank you for joining me today. And, this CagleCast is available in both audio and video versions. To view the images from the podcast or to access the video version, visit daryl keel.com. See the entire. Archive of both Rivers and Gary McCoy's cartoons on keel.com. And, uh, if you're gonna subscribe, go to Apple Podcasts or Spotify because uh, that's where we'd like to build up our numbers. And if you don't wanna miss a podcast, go look at the front page of kegel.com or darryl kegel.com and I hope you won't miss a podcast. And, uh, we will bring Rivers and Gary McCoy back. I'd also like to bring you guys back with. Dick Wright, if we can get him to do this, a another of our conservative cartoonists. Mm-hmm. . And, uh, we have conservative columnists [01:01:00] and I'd like to invite the columnists to come on too. Um, make them feel like they're, uh, a little more part of the group and, they should feel more at home with you than they would with me and some of our liberal cartoonists. So, uh, maybe we can have some more, uh, conservative, podcasts going forward. And I'll try to, uh, not speak my mind quite so much so you can have a kind of a, a conservative feeling to, it. [01:01:23] Gary McCoy: Sounds fun, Darrell. Yeah. Mm-hmm. . [01:01:26] Daryl Cagle: Yeah. Okay. So we'll have you back and we'll do it again. And, uh, thank you gentlemen, and I will see you later. And thanks for being with us for this lovely podcast. Thanks, Gerald. Thank you. See [01:01:37] Gary McCoy: you Rivers. [01:01:38] Rivers: See you, Gary.