19 Putin Part Two
[00:00:00] Daryl Cagle: Hi, I'm Daryl Cagle and this is the CagleCast where we're all about political cartoons. Today is our Vladimir Putin, Part Two CagleCast, and we have four great cartoonists joining me, and all of them are syndicated to newspapers all around the world by Cagle Cartoons.
[00:00:19] Daryl Cagle: Gentlemen, it's very nice to see you.
[00:00:21] Taylor Jones: Good to see you, Darryl, everybody.
[00:00:22] Joep Bertrams: Nice to see you. Pleasure to be. You too. 
[00:00:25] Daryl Cagle: Hey, our first cartoonist today is Jos Collignon, and this is one of Jos' excellent cartoons. Yos is coming to us from Holland and he studied international law and worked as a journalist until he decided to become an editorial cartoonist since 1982.
[00:00:42] Daryl Cagle: Jos' cartoons are published in Dutch, in de Volkskrany. Jos has won tons of awards, including the Grand Prix at the European Press cartoon in Brussels. Thanks for being here, Jos. 
[00:00:54] Jos Collignon: Thanks for having 
[00:00:54] Jos Collignon: me. 
[00:00:55] Daryl Cagle: Our next cartoonist is Joep Bertrams, who also comes to us from Holland. Joep works for the E Huna Amshalaga newspaper in Amsterdam, which has nothing to do with the Green Party, and he works with a bunch of other Dutch papers.
[00:01:10] Daryl Cagle: Thanks for joining us Joep 
[00:01:11] Joep Bertrams: Great. Thank you for having me. 
[00:01:13] Daryl Cagle: Okay, our next cartoonist is Adam Zli, who comes to us from Buffalo, New York. He draws for the Buffalo News. Adam's won the Pulitzer Prize and he's won a bunch of other prizes, and we're delighted to have you here, Adam. 
[00:01:27] Adam Zyglis: Happy to be here. It's great to meet some of my international colleagues that I admire their work so much.
[00:01:32] Adam Zyglis: It's good to connect the face to the work 
[00:01:35] Daryl Cagle: And we have, Taylor Jones, Taylor, this is one of yours, Putin's evolution. I think you're just brilliant and, uh, delighted to have you here. I have three of your cartoons hanging in my living room. You draw for the Hoover Digest at Stanford University, and you're a staff cartoonist for many years for the El Nuevo Dia newspaper in Puerto Rico.
[00:01:57] Daryl Cagle: And you drew for many years for US News and World Report Magazine, and you've won a ton of awards too. All of you guys actually ton of awards. 
[00:02:04] Taylor Jones: Heck no. I only thing, I only award I've won is a special award from the Gong Show back in the 1970s, and I wasn't even on the Gong 
[00:02:12] Daryl Cagle: Show. Well, we'll, we'll make note of that, gentlemen.
[00:02:15] Daryl Cagle: It's very nice to see you all here. 
[00:02:17] Joep Bertrams: Thank you. Good. Be here. 
[00:02:18] Daryl Cagle: And Adam, this is one of your cartoons and I think it's a, a great one. He's running in the hamster forever wheel, wonderful cartoon year after the start of the war in Ukraine. 
[00:02:30] Adam Zyglis: Thank you. It's, it's, it's a challenge sometimes to, tackle a topic that you cover so often and you wanna sometimes say a similar thing.
[00:02:39] Adam Zyglis: So coming up with fresh metaphors, to capture sort of a feeling or a vibe, um, can be a challenge. I'm a fan of, Juxtaposition with size and contrast and, and scale and things like that. and cartoons with few words as my international colleagues also enjoy. 
[00:02:55] Daryl Cagle: One thing that is so nice about Putin is that all the cartoonists have drawn so many Putin drawings. And, uh,
[00:03:02] Taylor Jones: he's been around for how long now? 
[00:03:04] Daryl Cagle: Well, I'm emphasizing the recent ones and, we had, so many to choose from and it's just, great. So we're gonna start off with you Jos. Uh, yeah. Oh yeah. Tell us what's going on in this thing. It's written in Dutch. 
[00:03:15] Jos Collignon: This is, uh, this is, uh, a little older. Uh, this is from, um, I think 2000, uh, 14. That was even before I met you guys. it's, um, it's, it's these, you know, these little girls everywhere in the world, I guess, have these little po poetry albums.
[00:03:35] Jos Collignon: And when they give to friends, they get, uh, little, uh, poems back written in it and some, some images to stick them in. And, the images look like this. And the, the poetry above, you know it all in English as well. It goes, uh, roses are read. Violets are blue. Five fingers. Are I the middle one for you? 
[00:03:59] Joep Bertrams: That's good. That's 
[00:04:00] Taylor Jones: good. Can see you, 
[00:04:02] Jos Collignon: you can kinda Right. Adam was talking, Adam was talking about contrast and, and the contrast here for me was the nice thing to, to have a, a cruel man who is killing his opponents and, and, uh, and then depict him like this and, and, uh, have a, a little nursery rhyme above.
[00:04:22] Jos Collignon: So that gave to me a confess that I was very satisfied with. 
[00:04:28] Taylor Jones: Jos, you've also taught me, uh, five words in Dutch. So, and, and they were, well, the, the Rosen Rosen Zi 
[00:04:37] Jos Collignon: root Roses rose, the Rosen Blue, I, how pronounce Roses are wrote, blo. Wow. He kept five fingers and the middle is for ya.
[00:04:48] Daryl Cagle: Okay, Jos. This one's in Dutch too. Tell us what this one says. 
[00:04:52] Jos Collignon: Yeah, this was from 2015, and you all know, uh, Boris Nemtsov. So he was killed in front of the Kremlin and, uh, nobody knew who did it. Actually, we all knew who did it. It was of course, Putin, but Putin, uh, uh, or the, the Russians at, at several, uh, explanations for the killing of Boris Nemtsov. So
[00:05:15] Jos Collignon: and I drew them here all. Yeah, but they all have the face of Putin as you see. So who killed Nemtsov himself. It says, uh, the Muslims did, the West did it. The East did it. The North did it. The South did it. Uh, the midgets did it, or, uh, a friend, a photo model did it or his wife. But you see everywhere the same face.
[00:05:43] Jos Collignon: Everyone knew who really was it. And it was nice. This cartoon made, uh, uh, made it all over Eastern Europe. Uh, I had a site in those days and I could see on that site where people had looked at it, and it was all over Russia and all over from Finland to the crim. Uh, it was a huge success. So I was very proud with this one.
[00:06:08] Jos Collignon: And it said something that most people, uh, Likes to have said, 
[00:06:14] Daryl Cagle: uh, well, 
[00:06:14] Daryl Cagle: I should say you've got lovely little Putin drawings as each of these, uh, possible killers in this cartoon. And it's a wonderful, funny cartoon. I have to, uh, describe the cartoons because, uh, lot of our listeners are getting an audio only podcast and can't see the images.
[00:06:32] Daryl Cagle: So as I go through them, you just gotta sit through my descriptions and when they're in Dutch, we gotta sit through your descriptions or they can, it's okay. They can go to youtube.com or Apple Podcast or Cagle.com or CagleCast.com. They can get the video podcast or, subscribe wherever you're seeing this podcast.
[00:06:53] Daryl Cagle: Here this, I thought this cartoon was just great wordless cartoon. You've got, Xi Jtp ping, uh, curling . Putin is pushing his, it is curling. Yeah. Putin's pushing his Putin is pushing his curling bomb.
[00:07:06] Daryl Cagle: Uh, as, as, uh, Xi Jing is doing the, the sweeping in front of it. There's a wonderful, cartoon. He's sweeping the bomb toward Ukraine. 
[00:07:14] Jos Collignon: At the time, we thought that he was, he was paving the way for Putin's aggression. But we actually, we still don't know if that's the case. Nobody knows where China stands in this, uh, in this conflict.
[00:07:29] Jos Collignon: And they leave it like that. So I 
[00:07:31] Joep Bertrams: think they're 
[00:07:31] Daryl Cagle: gonna stand, but they want that way, I think. Yeah. Stand anywhere that, uh, they can get the most out of it. 
[00:07:36] Jos Collignon: Yeah, I guess 
[00:07:37] Jos Collignon: so. 
[00:07:38] Jos Collignon: I guess so. 
[00:07:40] Daryl Cagle: This one I think is fun. You've got the world queuing up the Zelensky cue ball to knock the Putin eight ball into the corner pocket.
[00:07:49] Jos Collignon: That's it. I guess you said 
[00:07:50] Taylor Jones: it though. 
[00:07:51] Adam Zyglis: That's a great metaphor. I love no words. And the, your caricature of Putin is wonderful. Going back to even the, the one with his face on all the different characters. You just, you haven't reduced to the eyes and the nose. You know? All you need to see is the eyes and the nose and you know, it's him, you 
[00:08:07] Joep Bertrams: know?
[00:08:08] Jos Collignon: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I get a little bit in trouble the moment I have to draw his mouth because it's easy for me. This nose. It covers 
[00:08:18] Taylor Jones: everything. 
[00:08:19] Daryl Cagle: Well, you know, he used to have a very different face. He's, he, he's gotten puffy and round lately he looks more like little cartoon elf. Yeah. But in the past he had this very bond villain face with the, the harsh, uh, uh, cheeks and the, the mouth that looked very evil.
[00:08:36] Daryl Cagle: Yeah, 
[00:08:36] Taylor Jones: I've, I've heard that on lot of steroids. Skinny Chin 
[00:08:39] Jos Collignon: as well. Uhhuh. Yeah. 
[00:08:41] Taylor Jones: I've heard that he is on a lot of steroids. Uh, to make him 
[00:08:45] Joep Bertrams: puffy. No. 
[00:08:46] Taylor Jones: For their shirtless photos. Not making puffy, but that's what happens. 
[00:08:50] Daryl Cagle: Why would he be out? But just 
[00:08:51] Taylor Jones: serious him more. I've heard his health isn't, you know, despite the virility that he likes to show the world that he's got some serious health problems.
[00:09:01] Taylor Jones: And again, this is just stuff I've read. It's all probably medical speculation, but it has been speculated that, that he's taking steroids or something else that is making his face pouch out. Get, you know, get kind of orangutan-ish. Yeah. Yeah. You know, he and I are the same age, so, uh, uh, so I can understand small world.
[00:09:20] Taylor Jones: Yeah, it certainly looks like it. Yes. I'd like the, I really like your pool, your pool player too. I just like the. I just like the way he, that that's, you've got the really well done. 
[00:09:29] Daryl Cagle: So you, we've got this crazy Russian Orthodox church that is so pro-war, so much in Putin's pocket. And, uh, I notice a lot more cartoons about the crazy church both in Russia and Ukraine, uh, from the international cartoonists.
[00:09:44] Daryl Cagle: The American cartoonists don't seem to draw this at all, which is kind of interesting. Yeah. And, and it seems like a major issue and thing that's going on there that, uh, is seen internationally and just not seen here. So here you've got the crazy Russian church, uh, on Easter, resurrecting the Moskva, the warship that Ukraine sank 
[00:10:05] Daryl Cagle: and, it was a wonderful Easter cartoon, a resurrection cartoon. 
[00:10:10] Jos Collignon: But, but, but how, how, why is that, uh, Daryl, uh, that, uh, in America, there are less drawings about church and, and churches and, and church spiritual leaders like this. I, I try to do that. 
[00:10:24] Daryl Cagle: I, I should say that's probably generally true. We, we don't get as many cartoons printed about religion, um, unless it's a holiday cartoon.
[00:10:35] Adam Zyglis: My paper historically has been sensitive to criticizing the Catholic church because of our demographic and our readership. This is, it's not the case. In the last 10 years, I've been allowed to do so more, but I don't, I don't feel like my, the coverage I'm reading from of Russia and Ukraine, I don't think a lot of the coverage I'm reading focuses on the church.
[00:10:54] Adam Zyglis: And so that could be it too. 
[00:10:56] Daryl Cagle: Mm. Yeah. We don't get it in the news coverage either. 
[00:10:59] Jos Collignon: Yeah. Because Daryl mentioned that the crazy church. So you can easily say it, but you don't draw it very often. 
[00:11:07] Taylor Jones: Well, it's always a sensitive, it's always a sensitive topic here and um, uh, and you know, editors are always worried about subscriptions being canceled.
[00:11:18] Taylor Jones: And some of the first to do that are those who are offended whenever anything touches on religion in their view. A nega in a negative way. 
[00:11:27] Daryl Cagle: You know, you've got some cartoons here that depict crucifixions as well. And, uh, yeah, American cartoonists do that once in a while. I've done some, and I notice in this stats that every time there's a crucifixion in a cartoon, the cartoon just doesn't get reprinted.
[00:11:40] Daryl Cagle: Yeah, yeah, yeah. As much as we want to draw Crucifixions, as much as we wanna draw blood and Nazis and Ku Klux Klan, none of those things get reprinted. The editors just don't print them. Uh, we, we draw them for ourselves. Yeah. Perhaps to the artist's credit. Uh, it's not like they draw any less of these, they just don't get printed.
[00:12:01] Jos Collignon: Yeah. Well, there must be some differences between, uh, the, the subjects, uh, that American cartoons take and, and draw, and the European. Pat Bagley once told me that he has to submit all the ideas he has to the editors before he starts drawing, and that's. Well, that's not done in the Netherlands.
[00:12:24] Jos Collignon: That's quite a difference. And that makes him, perhaps, although you don't notice it with his cartoons, he's so unbelievably skilled that makes his position, uh, different from our position in the Netherlands, for instance. 
[00:12:41] Daryl Cagle: A lot of cartoonists suffer from that. Do you have to do that, Adam? 
[00:12:45] Adam Zyglis: Uh, I basically, I give, um, I, I send like around midday, I send my sketches.
[00:12:52] Adam Zyglis: I'm considering to different people, including my editor, to get their feedback. But I ultimately pick the one that I'm going with. They just want a heads up on the sketch so they're not blindsided. So there is some, I don't just draw to completion and then submit it without them seeing it. I will give them the sketch, um, before I start inking so that they just know what it is and every couple of years, okay, they will say, wait a second, this, um, this visual might be too offensive.
[00:13:18] Adam Zyglis: Um, but generally speaking, that doesn't happen a lot. So they just, they, they, they don't pick and choose. I've heard of some cartoonists will give them options. That's a terrible situation where then the editor's like, you gotta use this one. Clay Bennett for years said he would, yeah, yeah. He would've to do that and like he kind of would be strategic about which ones he would show them, just so he would get the one he wanted in the paper 
[00:13:39] Taylor Jones: that, yeah, that I, that happened a lot doing draw drawing cartoons for El Nuevo Dia in Puerto Rico.
[00:13:44] Taylor Jones: And I had to, I, you know, I speak Spanish to some degree. I'm certainly not fluent, but I dealt with an editor who was um, very proud, making sure to deal with me in Spanish, only English with the, absolutely had to, although he spoke English. But I had to come up with any, at least three and sometimes five or six ideas and I would do my best and ....
[00:14:06] Taylor Jones: Same thing to try to. Couch him in a way that he would choose the one I wanted and sometimes was really annoyed when he didn't. 
[00:14:12] Jos Collignon: That's funny. That's that's completely unknown in the Netherlands. No, no, no. I love you. The people who write columns in the Netherlands, if, uh, in America, do they have get the same treatment?
[00:14:25] Jos Collignon: Do they have to tell, tell what? I 
[00:14:28] Joep Bertrams: interrupt you because I'm from Holland and, uh, I work on, on in, in weekends and then Sunday and Monday I work for, uh, the E Huna Amshalaga and other uh, uh, papers as well. And I sent, uh, 
[00:14:44] Joep Bertrams: three sketches or so to the 
[00:14:47] Joep Bertrams: E Huna and they chose one and the other one, I can use them for the other one.
[00:14:51] Joep Bertrams: So I do propose, do propose to the Huna. And if they choose and they choose one and I know will. For, uh, I think, uh, for, uh, for, for Charlie Hebdo also makes three, uh, uh, sketches, not for Charlie Hebdo three drawings as well. 
[00:15:16] Jos Collignon: Charlie Hebdo are, they 
[00:15:19] Joep Bertrams: gives you some, some, some convenience that you, I never can work on, on, on a, on a, on a sketch and on a drawing, which, which is, uh, going the right direction.
[00:15:32] Joep Bertrams: And it's always your own, uh, sketch. 
[00:15:37] Jos Collignon: Yeah, yeah. But, oh, well, I'm sorry. I did not know this. 
[00:15:41] Taylor Jones: Daryl would 
[00:15:42] Joep Bertrams: No, no problem. I didn't do 
[00:15:44] Joep Bertrams: it 
[00:15:44] Joep Bertrams: before, but nowadays it's much easier for me. Um, no, 
[00:15:49] Taylor Jones: uh uh Yo, I wanted to add one thing. I just, it, it, um, I love your, I love your sketch of the Metropolitan in that, that cartoon.
[00:15:58] Taylor Jones: It's just, it's a beautiful. A beautiful rendering, uh, of the Russian Orthodox mission. Metro. They're called Metropolitans, I think. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, 
[00:16:06] Jos Collignon: yeah, yeah. 
[00:16:07] Daryl Cagle: This is a wonderful cartoon, Jos, uh, the, the big Russian military parade. But it's really the, the gas pipelines that are good, that are their weapons.
[00:16:19] Daryl Cagle: Wonderful cartoon. Yeah. 
[00:16:21] Jos Collignon: Well, they had, this year they had one tank in the parade. So I thought, uh, this is an old one from last year. Well, it might have been this year too, a better idea to, uh, point at the, the real weapons they have, which are the oil and the gas. Of 
[00:16:37] Daryl Cagle: course. Of course. And here you have, Picasso's, Guernica plopping down on top of, Putin, um, reality, comes to land on his back.
[00:16:49] Daryl Cagle: and what does this say? 
[00:16:50] Jos Collignon: No, it's, no, well, it's, it is more, I dunno if it was in America like that. But we had in Holland, a lot of people or, or some people who glued themselves to paintings or to even to a table in a, in a talk show, uh, as way of protesting against, I don't even remember the, the environment or something like that.
[00:17:16] Jos Collignon: And, uh, it was on a daily basis in the papers that people had done that with pictures. So then I thought, well, I know another example. why not? Because there's Guernica was, which was made in Spain against the fascists and, and the bombing of the town of Guernica why not glue, let this painting lose, it glues itself to Putin.
[00:17:42] Jos Collignon: Because that would make a protest that would be as valuable as, uh, the other protests we saw day to day on our, uh, television.
[00:17:50] Daryl Cagle: It's a painting that Putin should, 
[00:17:51] Daryl Cagle: so that's why should wear all the 
[00:17:53] Daryl Cagle: time. 
[00:17:55] Jos Collignon: Yeah. Well, I guess so that would be best. 
[00:17:58] Jos Collignon: Uh,
[00:17:58] Daryl Cagle: excellent cartoon. Uh, here you've got, uh, uh, Darth Vader, uh, "Z" Soldier looking over, uh, a, a heap of debris at, uh, I guess this is a uncaring German saying One more for the road.
[00:18:16] Jos Collignon: Yeah. Well, it is. This one was about Heineken the beer. You also know. Mm-hmm. And Heineken had promised with a lot of, lot of other companies to leave the UK when Russia started its aggression. But the, after a year, uh, it became clear that Heineken hadn't left at all. And even had expanded his business in the, in, uh, in, uh, in, uh, Russia.
[00:18:43] Jos Collignon: So there was a, a big fuss about it. And then, uh, Heineken said, well, well, we'll go, we'll go. And then I made this cartoon, uh, with uh, one more for the road. 
[00:18:53] Daryl Cagle: Very good. Now this is one that I debated putting in here, cuz I think I'll have to cut it out. But this is a hilarious cartoon. 
[00:19:03] Joep Bertrams: This is the, that's what we were talking, this is what we were talking about.
[00:19:07] Joep Bertrams: Yes. 
[00:19:07] Daryl Cagle: And you know, we're, we're trying to convince, uh, uh, some of our syndication clients to run our, our podcast on their sites with their editorial cartoons. And, um, if we put this in there, I think they're go, they might object to this. Uh, but this is a wonderful cartoon. And, uh, 
[00:19:26] Jos Collignon: that's, that's, shouldn't a cartoon be some be wonderful?
[00:19:30] Jos Collignon: And shouldn't a cartoon be something to laugh about? So there you have it. Why? Why 
[00:19:35] Joep Bertrams: Right. Makes it memorable. 
[00:19:36] Daryl Cagle: Why, why not print this? Okay. So, you know, the, the Pussy Riot is the, the Russian, uh, all women, uh, rock group that was, uh, protesting the government and was, persecuted by the government there. And they're lifting up the pants of this Russian Orthodox Church leader that we don't get many cartoons about here in America and Putin and displaying their very tiny private parts, which just strikes me really funny.
[00:20:06] Daryl Cagle: Um, and I love this cartoon, and we would not get a single paper to reprint this cartoon. 
[00:20:14] Jos Collignon: No, but in the, on the, on the whole, in America, European cartoons aren't sold by you. You can't sell them. 
[00:20:23] Daryl Cagle: Well, they, they don't sell very well. But by the same token, American cartoons don't sell very well in Europe.
[00:20:31] Jos Collignon: Well, they used to. They used to in the times of Pat Oliphant and MacNelly, they were often reprinted in our papers. 
[00:20:38] Daryl Cagle: That was 50 years ago. 
[00:20:40] Jos Collignon: Yeah. Well, I'm old. This, that's, that's when I got the idea of becoming a 
[00:20:47] Jos Collignon: cartoonist. 
[00:20:48] Daryl Cagle: Those were very inspirational guys. And, uh, you know, back in the seventies, lots of American cartoonists were drawing in their style and it just, inspired everybody.
[00:21:00] Daryl Cagle: But, you know, we've grown since then. We've got everybody drawing in their own style where there's no commonality there. There used to be editorial cartoonists. Were criticized for all looking alike, and we certainly don't look alike now. 
[00:21:12] Jos Collignon: Yeah, you're right. 
[00:21:13] Jos Collignon: Um, you're right, you're right. I remember Pat Oliphant saying, uh, there should be someone to take the art over the hills and continue.
[00:21:23] Jos Collignon: And, uh, if you 
[00:21:25] Jos Collignon: ask me,
[00:21:25] Daryl Cagle: and now we're all over the 
[00:21:26] Daryl Cagle: hill. 
[00:21:28] Jos Collignon: Well, there are some, a cartoonist, uh, in America. I, I'm a big fan of, uh, of, uh, Pat Bagley, for instance. I mentioned his name. Mm-hmm. I think he is a fighter with a lot of humor and a real political, uh, cartoonist. I think he is one of the guys with you who put, uh, the art Oh, the, the trade over the hill.
[00:21:52] Daryl Cagle: So Joep, here you've got, uh, Belarusian President Lukashenko, and he's looking decrepit with a cane, and he's wearing his, his jockey shorts, which have Putin on his butt with a pipe coming out of Putin's mouth, going into a mask on Lukashenko's face, so that he's getting the, the butt fumes to breathe.
[00:22:13] Daryl Cagle: And in his mask, all of these people are, are dropping out. Who are the migrants with his, uh, effort to push the, migrants into Europe in order to make a political point that he's gotta be, uh, paid attention to or he'll cause trouble. You've got it labeled Belarusian ICU, and this is just a hilarious image that doesn't stand up well to being described.
[00:22:40] Daryl Cagle: Um, but, uh, tell us a little bit more about this crazy thing that no American paper would print. 
[00:22:47] Joep Bertrams: In brief, you could say that, that, 
[00:22:50] Jos Collignon: uh, 
[00:22:51] Joep Bertrams: Putin is, uh, delivers the, the oxygen for, for, uh, Lukashenko. Uh, if not, he would, uh, wouldn't have survived, uh, a few years ago with all those, uh, protests in Belarus, and thanks to Putin and his strength, uh, he could survive.
[00:23:11] Joep Bertrams: And, uh, as a result of that, uh, Lukashenko, Belarus had to accept that lots of, of, uh, illegal immigrants passed by, uh, Belarus to Poland to embarrass, uh, Poland and, and, and Europe as well. And that's what's happening there. It's not a very, let's say tasteful, uh, thing. You can see here. It it just a dirty, dirty work.
[00:23:41] Daryl Cagle: I appreciate all your dirty work. Um, the, the French cartoonists say that American cartoonists are prudes, uh, because they can draw all these crazy, nasty things that we can't do. But I should say we aspire to draw those things. We're just, uh, frustrated that we can't. And, uh, uh, we, uh, admire your freedom, which is, uh, much like the French and, uh, wish that we could have it as well.
[00:24:10] Daryl Cagle: So here you've got Putin. He's, uh drinking his flammable, booze, and he's got a gas prom flame ready to blow, flaming, spittle out of his mouth. Um, yeah, that's a wonderful cartoon. 
[00:24:24] Joep Bertrams: That was a big, uh, threat of, of Putin. Of course, he got the gas, he got the gas pipeline, he got the fuel, he got everything you could say to, to, uh, Uh, blackmail, uh, the Western world.
[00:24:40] Joep Bertrams: But, uh, afterwards it seemed it wasn't so wise to do so because it's, it's 
[00:24:47] Joep Bertrams: a very dangerous sport to, to, to, uh, 
[00:24:50] Joep Bertrams: how do 
[00:24:50] Daryl Cagle: what do we call those? Adam? 
[00:24:53] Adam Zyglis: Uh, fire breather. I don't know. Um, 
[00:24:55] Joep Bertrams: yes. 
[00:24:57] Daryl Cagle: Okay. Here you've got, uh, not a on a tank of, on a, on a Stalin style tank of gas recovered heroism.
[00:25:06] Daryl Cagle: That's a fun cartoon. Big gun of the 
[00:25:09] Joep Bertrams: style of that. It's, yes, it, it's, it's a war machine. Uh, of course, because, uh, it is again, is, is is the gas and then the, the greatness of the former Soviet Union with Stalin, which, uh, uh, Putin wants to, to, to, uh, reinstall. And, but nevertheless, it's always, uh, a problem.
[00:25:33] Daryl Cagle: Here you have this one is, 
[00:25:35] Joep Bertrams: This is, uh, how do you call this? 
[00:25:38] Joep Bertrams: In, 
[00:25:38] Joep Bertrams: we have an elephant in, in, in, uh, in a porcelain. And then, uh, we talked about it. China. 
[00:25:47] Daryl Cagle: Yeah. Bull in a China shop. But here you've got, I guess this is a wolf in a China shop. 
[00:25:52] Joep Bertrams: Yes, of course. Because the, cause the, they a little bit similar.
[00:25:59] Joep Bertrams: Similar, a wolf and a little dog because it's the same, can to, to say it the same, uh, Very good sort of, uh, 
[00:26:08] Daryl Cagle: animal, big, big Putin wolf in a China shop with the, the cute little Ukraine dog about to, and until 
[00:26:17] Joep Bertrams: now, everything is fine, but you, you can be sure that won't take long, that everything will be big mess and broken 
[00:26:29] Daryl Cagle: as well.
[00:26:29] Daryl Cagle: Here's an another church cartoon that, uh, yeah, you, I think you guys just have a very much better perspective on the Ukraine thing by emphasizing the, the church there so much. Um, we just don't get that here. And, uh, really? Yes, and I think that's, uh, it's, it's important to have that perspective. I, that's a strength you have that we don't have in our coverage here.
[00:26:56] Joep Bertrams: Because that's a problem. The, with one of the problems in Russia is that former days they had the, the Communist Party, and now it's, it's the Orthodox Church. Mm-hmm. Which is almost the same as it's, uh, uh, and unfeasible. And nowadays Putin, which is, uh, was a communist, uh, a real communist, and now is in an Orthodox, uh, orthodox, uh, preach, uh, all knows and, uh, everything has to do with him and, uh, his power.
[00:27:32] Daryl Cagle: Yes. And this is, uh, one of the things that 
[00:27:35] Joep Bertrams: he, he compares himself with God 
[00:27:38] Daryl Cagle: in the end. Mm-hmm. This is one of the things that Republicans who oppose giving aid to Ukraine bring up occasionally that well bring up often, is that the, the, uh, Ukrainians are suppressing religion in their country by, uh, uh, suppressing the, the church there, which is really just, uh, propaganda wing of Russia.
[00:28:00] Taylor Jones: And 
[00:28:00] Jos Collignon: they're, they're, but it's, it's effort. No, go ahead. 
[00:28:03] Taylor Jones: Go ahead Taylor. And also, that's a big reason I believe why people like Marjorie Taylor Greene and a lot of Republicans, are really on Putin's side because Putin wants what they want, which is a, basically a white nationalist society. And whereas, you know, a lot of Republicans, certainly Margie Taylor Green would have the evangelical, uh, Protestants on their side, so to, with Putin and the Orthodox Church, 
[00:28:33] Jos Collignon: They're all looking, they're all looking for support, uh, with the fundamental Christians 
[00:28:38] Taylor Jones: Both, both Russian Orthodox and evangelical Protestants aren't too keen on the gays, you know?
[00:28:43] Taylor Jones: So there's on gay people. No, no. You know, they've got a lot in common, which is scary, right? Yeah. Fundamental Christian. Yeah. And 
[00:28:49] Jos Collignon: you also see it in Israel like this. I mean, uh, Netanyahu can stay in power because of the fundamentalist Christians. Yeah, absolutely. And not Christians, but Jews. And so, so the right winging has found, uh, the fundamentalism on its side, and that makes him strong everywhere.
[00:29:08] Jos Collignon: Well, it's 
[00:29:08] Taylor Jones: funny because, um, 
[00:29:10] Joep Bertrams: in a way it, sorry. In a way it is very strange because they discussed the Muslim all and, and it's a religion as well. And, and they have the same, uh, very straight principles. And, uh, what is the difference? 
[00:29:30] Daryl Cagle: We'd be having a very different conversation now if I'd have invited one of our conservative cartoonists to join us.
[00:29:36] Daryl Cagle: All right. I heard him about it already. Here you've got the Russian mobilization 2022 and everybody is running scared and uh, uh, and of course a couple of them have their pants down and, and that's a beautiful drawing. 
[00:29:49] Joep Bertrams: Yes. That's what you do. Yeah. Express. Yeah. That's a beautiful drawing. Expressions are haunting.
[00:29:53] Joep Bertrams: Yeah, because they of course run outta contracts, uh, soldiers. So, so they have to a draft and then no Russian must to be in the military. 
[00:30:07] Daryl Cagle: This, the mobilization was, they're calling up people to serve in the military and Ukraine. And of course, many of the men that stood to be drafted ran out of the country as quick as they could.
[00:30:19] Daryl Cagle: wonderful cartoon. This was hard to draw. Yeah. I hate doing crowd scenes. Yes, 
[00:30:24] Joep Bertrams: me 
[00:30:24] Taylor Jones: too. 
[00:30:25] Jos Collignon: Me too. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But 
[00:30:27] Joep Bertrams: every now and then you need to, 
[00:30:29] Daryl Cagle: here you've got an evil looking, uh, Putin holding, uh, a broken, bloody, uh, plug. The Ukraine Strangler. Of course, he's, he's, uh, blowing up all of the electrical generation facilities in Ukraine.
[00:30:45] Daryl Cagle: Yes, he 
tried 
[00:30:45] Joep Bertrams: to, it's very nice to strangle, uh, Ukraine, but 
[00:30:50] Taylor Jones: beautiful use of light in all your cartoons. You're beautiful. I just love your use of light. Yeah, great perspective 
[00:30:55] Daryl Cagle: and looking good. here is the Putin brigade 2023. You've got, uh, them all lined up and they all have, one amputated leg.
[00:31:04] Daryl Cagle: Um, they are, uh, they're both hampered and injured. What did you have in mind on this one? 
[00:31:11] Joep Bertrams: Just that the whole arm is, is hampered and, and, and, uh, almost one leg. I, 
[00:31:19] Adam Zyglis: I love this whittled delay in this, like, at first it takes you a few extra seconds to, to really gather all the right, yeah. Great. At first I thought they're standing in a certain way.
[00:31:29] Taylor Jones: Um, it's very, I have a question about the Zs, because we've all used them and of course in, in photographs tanks and things, you see the Z but I don't think average readers in the US really have associated that Z with the, the Russian as kind of the, the Russian emblem in this war. Is, is it different in Europe as, as everybody associate the Z with the.
[00:31:53] Taylor Jones: Russian as sort of the Russian emblem of the war? 
[00:31:56] Jos Collignon: I guess so. I think so. I guess so. Yeah, because there 
[00:31:59] Joep Bertrams: are a lot of, uh, images and, and photographs and, and, and also on, uh, television and all tanks. They have all those, especially in the beginning, were all, uh, made up with, with Z. So I think that that won't be a problem, but I'm not sure.
[00:32:17] Joep Bertrams: But I think that the Z doesn't even exist in Russian. 
[00:32:20] Jos Collignon: It's relic. Oh, no, no. 
[00:32:23] Taylor Jones: I'm not sure. I think you're right. I, I, I read somewhere about what the origin of it is. Yeah. But I forget. 
[00:32:30] Joep Bertrams: Okay. Yeah, that's, let's keep it. 
[00:32:32] Daryl Cagle: So, so you appear, you have, uh, shirtless Putin in a broken Russian Z marked tank and a star of Ukraine in the sky.
[00:32:44] Daryl Cagle: It looks like the star is, peeing from space onto yes. Putin's head. I got that right. The star is peeing on his head. 
[00:32:53] Joep Bertrams: Yes. More or less. Yeah. 
[00:32:56] Jos Collignon: But it is around, uh, 
[00:32:57] Joep Bertrams: the Christmas, I think, uh, it is called in America. 
[00:33:04] Taylor Jones: And, uh, I think in, in, in 
[00:33:06] Joep Bertrams: Russia, it, it's a big thing that this feast but this time followed the star.
[00:33:13] Joep Bertrams: It was always, uh, said. 
[00:33:15] Daryl Cagle: Well, very good.
[00:33:16] Daryl Cagle: So, Taylor, we're moving on to you. We've got a great batch of cartoons from you. Here is Putin at his very long table, and here's the other end of the table. Two of his generals one of them says, "Do we tell him the truth?" The other one says, "You first." 
[00:33:32] Jos Collignon: this, was this published in one paper or digital way?
[00:33:35] Taylor Jones: I don't, I don't know what news this, this is second. This was published in Hoover Digest, which is the political economics journal of the Hoover Institution based at Stanford University.
[00:33:46] Taylor Jones: Uh, we're not always on the same side politically, but uh, they've been great to me and I've been doing stuff for them for 25 years now. And, uh, I've done a lot of Putin, uh, over for them, you know, uh, o over those two decades. 
[00:34:00] Jos Collignon: No, but I mean, when I saw the first cartoon, I thought, what's the point in this? Oh, and then I saw the second cartoon.
[00:34:07] Joep Bertrams: Yes. I 
[00:34:07] Jos Collignon: understood. Were they two? So I wonder, did you wait a day before you, I'm sorry, was the second cartoon or So I wondered, did you wait a day 
[00:34:15] Taylor Jones: before you actually the second cartoon? Well, no, no, no. Uh, that, uh, the, uh, the Digest is a, it's like a, it's, it's a small and physically it's a small journal kind of, and, and, and, uh, there's all these articles in it.
[00:34:28] Taylor Jones: And, uh, that was on one page. You turn the page and then you see the other half. Ah, okay. Probably 
[00:34:34] Jos Collignon: you had to, you 
had 
[00:34:35] Joep Bertrams: to turn the page. Yeah. That's fun. 
[00:34:38] Jos Collignon: But it's, it's nice. It's nice to have, uh, the, the, uh, To, to have it, uh, prolonged a little or pay or 
[00:34:46] Taylor Jones: face or pay to, 
[00:34:47] Jos Collignon: to get, 
[00:34:48] Taylor Jones: to get to the point. 
[00:34:49] Daryl Cagle: So here you've got, Putin and President Trump, and Putin is doing his war dance.
[00:34:53] Daryl Cagle: And he says, "Effing moron, but a useful one.". And Trump is thinking, "No collusion. No collusion." This was, uh, back in the collusion with Russian days of Trump. That's just a very funny cartoon. Taylor, 
[00:35:09] Taylor Jones: I don't know. Well, well, thank you Daryl. I don't know that anybody published it. Uh, 
[00:35:13] Adam Zyglis: Putin has got quite the, quite the legs there?
[00:35:16] Taylor Jones: Oh yeah. Well, he works out. Yeah, he really does. 
[00:35:21] Joep Bertrams: Very 
[00:35:21] Jos Collignon: good. He's beautiful cartoon. I do you, you draw them for yourself as well?
[00:35:26] Taylor Jones: I'm sorry? Well, I do. I, I, I, I, a lot of the things I do for Cagle Cartoons are just for Cagle Cartoons. Others. Again, I been Hoover, Hoover Digest and others. Uh, well, I'm no longer working with El Nuevo Dia in Puerto Rico, but there were a lot of cartoons then as well.
[00:35:43] Taylor Jones: So, but some of these, this one was probably done just for, for Cagle.
[00:35:48] Adam Zyglis: I love your, 
[00:35:48] Adam Zyglis: your Trump caricature too, Taylor. It's, thank you. I love, I'm a fan of the profile of Trump, um, when he is in cartoons. Thank he's got such a great profile. Thank, appreciate that 
[00:35:58] Daryl Cagle: I've got a big Taylor Trump hanging in my living room.
[00:36:01] Daryl Cagle: Yeah. Well, so Taylor here, you've got your Pussy Riot and, you have translated, uh, Russian Cyrillic, uh, naughty words in a few of your cartoons, including this one. 
[00:36:12] Taylor Jones: Well, this isn't, well unless, well, that just says, but, uh, uh, yeah, that's a dirty word I suppose. And yeah. Yes. Uh, I've taken an interest in the, the, the Orthodox side of it.
[00:36:23] Taylor Jones: And of course, Pussy Riot, they were also, uh, uh, you know, they were. Uh, very critical of the Russian Orthodox Church as well. But, uh, uh, of course they're broken up. The, the, the, the brown eyed woman there in the yellow, uh, she lives in LA now. I don't know what the others, they, of course they were in jail briefly, but she's the one, if you see them interviewed on TV in the us, see one, it'll, it'll be her.
[00:36:50] Taylor Jones: Oh 
[00:36:50] Jos Collignon: yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:36:51] Taylor Jones: But this was fun. It was, this was fun to do. 
[00:36:54] Jos Collignon: And they, they still perform, don't they? 
[00:36:57] Taylor Jones: I don't know. Well, she's doing something with theater out here. 
[00:36:59] Jos Collignon: Yeah, I've seen them on, on, I've seen them on Dutch television. Oh, okay. Well, and uh, I guess I, I dunno, it's the full. Uh, Pussy Riot. But, but they were performing and they were singing new 
[00:37:10] Jos Collignon: songs.
[00:37:11] Adam Zyglis: close and their histories are so intertwined. Mm-hmm. So, um, and yeah, the, the metaphor with the pa the message in the actual painting of, uh, Saturn being threatened is power being threatened.
[00:37:21] Adam Zyglis: So eating his own and that sort of cannibalism, uh, I thought was a great, a great way to capture the, the brutality going on. 
[00:37:28] Taylor Jones: Um, Adam, did your, I mean, did editors, did your editor or editors know, know that painting? 
[00:37:37] Adam Zyglis: Um, well, Uh, I, this one, like a lot of my cartoons that reference things, I will send a screenshot sometimes of what I'm referencing, um, as a, just so you know, there's a layer in this card.
[00:37:50] Adam Zyglis: This is why I'm using this metaphor. Um, often they'll, they'll already know that, but some, and this one, I don't think they did. I mean, my editors, I'm a, I'm a fan of fine art and not everybody is, I think it's, the image is famous and I'm actually, I'm also glad that my, my paper runs in, my cartoons run in black and white in my newspaper color online.
[00:38:09] Adam Zyglis: But I think because it's black and white, I could get away with this. I think blood in color in my new, in the newsprint, I think they'd be much more sensitive to with red. Um, so it's kind of like a silver lining for my black and white print. 
[00:38:22] Taylor Jones: Adam 
[00:38:22] Jos Collignon: May, Adam, may I ask you, may I ask you something? Yes. Um, I'd like to think of ourselves as, uh, columnists with other means, you know?
[00:38:32] Jos Collignon: Mm-hmm. We draw, I agree. We don't write. That's right. people who write columnists who write, do they have to also in advance tell the editors what they are going to write about and in what way, what way they will do it? 
[00:38:46] Adam Zyglis: Uh, I think it's, it's for, at least for the Buffalo News, for me, it's similar where, um, I'll give them a sketch, um, and sometimes it'll be the finished product, but I just show them and they have the final say.
[00:38:59] Adam Zyglis: And the same with columnists. They will, a columnist will, if they write it to finish, if, if they don't give them a heads up, the editor still has the right to edit it or not run it. Um, And it doesn't happen often, but usually it's a relationship where they're like, give them a heads up. It's just, Hey, I'm writing a column for Sunday on this topic.
[00:39:18] Adam Zyglis: Mm-hmm. And then once the draft is in, in the system, the editors may say, you know, you, we have to pare it down. Um, I don't, it, it depends on the, on the columnist. Some columnists are given more freedom than others, and for me they don't, they don't edit details. They don't, um, say they just wanna see it ahead of time.
[00:39:37] Adam Zyglis: I don't get any real pushback other than every, once every couple of years if it's a subject related to the Catholic church or rape or, or death if they're sensitive to the image. And Ukraine is far enough away, I think, where they give me leeway. If it's something that Buffalo, there's a tragedy, they're a little sensitive to the families that may see it, and they may give me some pushback, but it's every couple of years at most really.
[00:40:02] Daryl Cagle: Uh, this is a lovely cartoon, Adam. You've got the very long Putin conference table and, uh, Putin's looking way far away at the world on the other I love, I really love this one. Thank you. And you have wolf.
[00:40:15] Daryl Cagle: You have wolf feet on his chair. 
[00:40:18] Adam Zyglis: That's right. What? You gotta the little details that, I'm glad you noticed that You gotta add some little 
[00:40:25] Taylor Jones: to gotta do this as well, though. You know, sometimes, oh, go ahead. I, I can say sometimes I, my, my definition of an editorial cartoonist is someone who's not talented enough to be a fine illustrator, is not smart enough to be a serious journalist and is not funny enough to be a standup comedian.
[00:40:44] Taylor Jones: But you put 'em all together and you, you come up with their own thing. 
[00:40:48] Daryl Cagle: That's, that's kind of a harsh definition. Taylor. You're a beautiful illustrator. 
[00:40:52] Adam Zyglis: The most biggest backhand compliment I've 
[00:40:55] Joep Bertrams: ever 
[00:40:55] Joep Bertrams: gotten. 
[00:40:55] Jos Collignon: You have a preacher as well. 
[00:40:56] Taylor Jones: You have to be a preacher as well. 
[00:40:59] Daryl Cagle: Okay. Here you've got a very bloody cartoon with, uh, Russian bear caught in a trap, and he's bleeding out Ukraine.
[00:41:07] Adam Zyglis: Similar to the initial, the first cartoon you showed with the Putin that's just stuck in the gear, the gears of Ukraine. It just that slow bleed, um, which is the way to win in this kind of war 
[00:41:18] Daryl Cagle: Okay. Thank you so much for being here. Thanks, uh, to Jos, to Joep, to Taylor and to Adam. We appreciate your being here for the CagleCast, remember that the CagleCast is in both audio and, video format. If you didn't get the video version, you can see that on Caglecast.com or Cagle.com or Apple Podcasts or Spotify, and it's all so cool and you just gotta see it. You should remember to subscribe to the CagleCast.
[00:41:46] Daryl Cagle: Subscribe to the CagleCast! And, gentlemen, it was, wonderful having you all here. And, uh we'll invite you back. 
[00:41:54] Adam Zyglis: Thank you. It's a lot of fun,